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more grammar troubles.. help!

 
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routinfigneuton
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Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 146
Location: boston

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject: more grammar troubles.. help!

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1.) usually だ after an "い-adjective" doesn't make sense. but what happens when it's followed by と or って?
「よいだと?」
and verbs too
「喜ぶだって?」
can someone explain what's going on in these sentences?

2.) を with (さ)れる
「嘘つきの烙印を押される」
it's a common construction though it seems to clash.
i thought it went like
→烙印を押す
→烙印が押される
those should be ok too.. but please tell me why を/される is ok!

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ericspinelli
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Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 222
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: more grammar troubles.. help!

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routinfigneuton wrote:
1.) usually だ after an "い-adjective" doesn't make sense. but what happens when it's followed by と or って?
「よいだと?」
and verbs too
「喜ぶだって?」
can someone explain what's going on in these sentences?


Where are you getting these examples? "よいだと" in Google brings up a number of pages but all of them are よい」だと or よい)だと.

routinfigneuton wrote:

2.) を with (さ)れる
「嘘つきの烙印を押される」
it's a common construction though it seems to clash.
i thought it went like
→烙印を押す
→烙印が押される
those should be ok too.. but please tell me why を/される is ok!


I don't think there is a set rule that passive sentences must take が or eschew を. That's a general rule, but it's all case by case. Unfortunately, I don't know the details (though it is quite common).

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routinfigneuton
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Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Posts: 146
Location: boston

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:42 am    Post subject:

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from google:
誰でもいいだと?
空が青いだと?
クリスマスには、まだ時期が早いだと?
-----------
#2
髪をとかす→髪をとか[される]
he brushes his hair > he [is] brush[ed]es his hair
in can't be the oject in english where it can in japanese?

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Lupin III
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Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 7
Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject:

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With the だと I know that it can be used to repeat something just said as in disbelief or something like that. Or like "what did you say!?"
A: Your girlfriend is a cock slut.
B: 何だと!?
Or maybe it can also be used to leave out kangaeru, omou or iu in a written context. I don't have a textbook understanding of it but that is my feeling from colloquial interaction.

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中馬鹿
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Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject:

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I think #2 is an example of the so-called "suffering passive," in which the subject (usually the first person/speaker) has something terrible done to him by an outside agent. This grammatical structure has no analogue in English-- in fact, the idea that a passive verb can take an object seems at first glance like a breach of logic.

So your example might be translated as: "(I) am branded as a liar (and it really hurts me)."

Another example, in which the "subject" is uncharacteristically a third person: その子供は隣の犬に手をかまれました。

Chewie

P.S. This is probably a lot more information than you want to know, but there is a healthy debate among Japanese language scholars whether this form emphasizes so much the "suffering" on the part of the subject, or more the "terribleness" of the action to which the subject is subjected. Those who agree with the latter school of thought usually say there is no such thing as a "suffering passive," just a subbranch of passives in which verbs can take objects. But I think for those new to the concept, it is easier to get over the logical hurdle by remembering it as the "suffering passive."

P.P.S. Apparently this grammatical concept is called 迷惑受身 in Japanese, translated as "emotional passive tense." There is a good explanation of it, in written and spoken Japanese, with lots of examples, here: http://www.njuku.com/?p=14

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