Pronunciation difference: shita vs. shhta

[buzmeg]

I noted your topics about basic pronunciation differences with interest as I'm beginning the process of studying for Level 4. It would be useful to compile some of these into a list for beginners.

A very frustrating one for me at the start was:
shita -> shhta

This was especially bad in an expression which used "shita ni" which seems to vary anywhere from "stani" to "shtani" to "shhtani". And, "shita ni i<anything>" as in "shita ni iru" can be all over the map.

As in your previous posts, native Japanese speakers simply don't hear any difference.

What's worse is that this is important to get right if you are dealing with Matsushita in a business sense. You can get both the inaudible "u" and inaudible "i" eg. Matsushita as Matsshhta. And don't *ever* pronounce it as Mat-su-SHI-ta or they will just walk out.

[spurrymoses]

Indeed, I'll have to consider doing this - a separate page of Things your Japanese teacher doesn't realise you need to know

This sort of thing becomes very obvious as your learning expands but is quite a problem when you're first hearing it. And it seems that no one tells you about it - possibly because Japanese people are oblivious to it.

I haven't even seen any book that points this out either.

I've also since learned that for 好き it's not always the sski pronunciation that practically everyone uses. I saw a lady being interviewed on NHK news, as well as someone singing on a cartoon and they both used the full, essentially technically correct pronunciation 'su ki'.

Sure it's part of learning; "you have to get used to it" and all that, but it's like a secret to begin with, teachers are oblivious to it, books don't talk about it etc.

So yes, I think I'd like to create a page that talks about this. I'll add it to my impending Words your Grandmother won't understand page.

[Keith]

[Kates]

Uhm, to be honest... I'm kinda surprised to hear several students talk about the 'silent i' and other pronunciation differences. Your teachers didn't tell you about this stuff? Like how you shouldn't really say "hajimemashite" but "hajimemashte"? >_>

[spurrymoses]

Hi Kates,

I think it comes about when you learn by absorption as opposed to having an English speaking person explain things for you.

So if you learn without any english at all and you learn the hiragana for し and then た - even though you are taught 'hajimemashite' pronounced the right way - you've got to ask yourself lots of questions... Like "why" and "is it only for shite or also for shita" and "what is the rule"? Is it only if you're speaking fast or slow or both? etc.

No one person or book ever explained to me that when し is followed by た or て then it has to go through a crunching process - eg "shte/ shta". It just came from listening to the teacher without explanation. Which then takes a while to pick up and appreciate.

It's not that simple even, because if you listen to a Japanese person say this: 高いし、食べにくいし、食べない。

It may or may not be pronounced with just 'sh' or the full 'shi'... There's no rule to that one, as far as I know - I think it depends on where you live and how the speaker feels at the time

Same goes for いち、に、さん. I only learnt that you can pronounce the first one with just 'itch' rather than 'itchi', after about one year of study when I heard it for the first time! What's the rule here, or why do they do it... I don't really know. I don't think the person speaking notices it or knows why either.

So I reckon this topic needs specific discussion rather than just 'noticing' it. And hence this is what I think the problem is... students are just noticing pronunciation oddities for the first time which were never pointed out explicitly - and they're in the Level 4 exam, so there's no time to lose

I've got my Modern to Grandmother word page just about ready and I'll post it soon

[JanneM]

Also, don't forget that for many pronounciation issues like this it can differ from region to region. We learn, for instance, that です is spoken with the final u silent, but in the Kyoto dialect (especially if you're a woman) you pronounce it.

A favourite example of mine is 箸　(はし, chopsticks) and 橋 (はし, bridge). In "standard" Japanese (which is close to some Tokyo dialects) you pronounce chopsticks with stress on the first part and no stress on bridge. In Kansai it's the other way around with chopsticks pronounced flat and unstressed and bridge with a stressed first part.

I think in general as you start to use the language you will get an ear for how things are pronounced. It's probably much more difficult for a teacher to make a good explanation than it is to simply expose you to the language and let you pick up the cues as you go along.

[spurrymoses]

[Keith]

The 3 Simple Steps to good pronunciation:

1. Listen
2. Repeat
3. Don't ask questions. Don't think too hard.

Repeat steps 1 & 2 as often as necessary.

You can't grasp pronunciation from a book.
So do lots of listening.

[JanneM]

[buzmeg]

[buzmeg]

[Tim]

Oh, you work at IBM too?
Nice to meet you.
If you like i can private message you my sametime id if you wanna chat.

[Keith]

[Sarevok]

About the です pronouncation. I agree with Spurry that they say the "u" part for formal things. I'm currently working in a Japanese company and I always hear them say ありがとうございます with a "u". They also do the same with します　especially when they're speaking on the phone.