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reason-し, reason-し twist?

 
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spurrymoses
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 399
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject: reason-し, reason-し twist?

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I'm quite confused by the use of し.

It's usually meant to give a list of reasons. Or, according to my textbooks, it can also imply 'several' reasons when you only give one followed by し. Sounds nice and easy so far, and judging from all the examples I've seen up until reading the past exam for JLPT3, it is.

However, the JLPT3 past exams have some rippers, that even with a native speaker by my side, I still can't fathom how it can mean what it's translated to. It appears that sometimes し is used without virtually any meaning at all, let alone 'reasons'.

Take these sentences. The first one is easy, classical use of し。Textbook stuff (which is what I'm expecting in a JLPT3 exam really).
1)
Quote:
この レストランは 味も 悪いし、ねだんも 高いですね。

But this one from the 1993 past-exam has me perplexed. A native Japanese speaker translates this with an 'and' in place of 'shi' - which means it loses it's 'reason' nuance altogether?
Certainly if you try to apply any sense of the textbook explanation for this sentence below, you've got to be stuck - which I am Wink
2)
Quote:
きのうは 雨も ひどかったし、風も 強かったです。

And this one which popped while I was searching for the previous one Wink There must be another explanation for the meaning of し that the textbooks haven't got to yet? I can't understand what this one below is trying to say with this use of し.
3)
Quote:
東京は生活し安い所だと思います。

Can anyone help with the use of し in the 2nd and 3rd examples?

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Tim
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Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject:

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Hi spurrymoses,

The reason-し, reason-し grammar is as you say used to give a list of reasons.
The し itself kinda acts like a particle that means "and" but also implys that the word before and after is a "reason" for something.

It therefore has the meaning of "and" in a list of reasons.

In example 1, which you understand, it says that the restaurant's food tastes bad and is expensive. Notice how the し is translated as "and" with the "tastes bad" and "is expensive" as the reasons

Quote:
この レストランは 味も 悪いし、ねだんも 高いですね。


The example 2 one is exactly the same as example 1. It says "yesterday, the rain was terrible and the wind was strong". Again, the "rain was terrible" and "wind was strong" are the reasons and the し is simply translated as "and".

Quote:
きのうは 雨も ひどかったし、風も 強かったです。


The 3rd example is actually a different grammar that is totally different from the reason-し grammar.

Quote:
東京は生活し安い所だと思います。

It is translated as "I think Tokyo is a place that is difficult to live in"

The grammar used is a common one for describe the difficulty of performing a task. This is done by replacing the -ます form of a verb with either -やすい or -にくい.

A combination with -やすい means "easy to~"
Meanwhile the -にくい means "difficult to~"

So using する the -ます form is します. When conjugating it to the -やすい form you get "しやすい" which means "easy to do".
On the other hand "しにくい" means "difficult to do".

This can be used with other verbs such as in
"書きやすい" easy to write
"書きにくい" difficult to write
"使いやすい" easy to use
"使いにくい" difficult to use

Also note that the kanji you used "安い" is the wrong kanji. The grammar is rarely used in kanji form although it uses the "易い" kanji which means "easy".

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spurrymoses
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 399
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject:

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Ahhh, I see. I think I've got it now. Thanks.

No wonder the last one got me. I'd heard of やすい・にくい but I just didn't click that it was using the stem form of する。

This often happens to me Wink I learn a grammatical form and then some uses of it, with certain words, just don't register.

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Tim
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Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject:

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Yeah, i understand what you mean..:wink: usually it takes actually seeing the grammar used in a real sentence in some real situation before you actually figure out a grammar form. Just seeing it in some real situation makes it so much more easier to remember.

It is difficult to learn grammar from just example sentences and descriptions alone. Though it is possible, it is harder to retain in my opinion.

Tim.

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rohan
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject:

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Thanks! I found that to be a useful explanation!
But:
Quote:
東京は生活し安い所だと思います。


This translates as "I think Tokyo is an easy place to live in", right? Just a typo I assume. :wink:

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spurrymoses
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Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 399
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:34 pm    Post subject:

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rohan wrote:
東京は生活し安い所だと思います。This translates as "I think Tokyo is an easy place to live in", right? Just a typo I assume. :wink:

Yep, it shouldn't use the Kanji for 安い - it was my mistake. It should be:
Quote:
東京は 生活しやすい所  だと思います。

The spacing here is to help me with the grammar Wink

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