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nukeu666
JLPT Starter
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Location: India
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 Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: what are onyomi/kunyomi? |
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From what I've read, onyomi and kunyomi have something to do with japanese and chinese kanjis, but i couldn't get is how are they different and when/where are they used specially?
like in http://jlpt.harushi.com/62.html
the onyomi is sen in katakana and kawa in hiragana, whats the meaning? |
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JanneM
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 313
Location: Osaka
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: what are onyomi/kunyomi? |
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| nukeu666 wrote: |
From what I've read, onyomi and kunyomi have something to do with japanese and chinese kanjis, but i couldn't get is how are they different and when/where are they used specially?
like in http://jlpt.harushi.com/62.html
the onyomi is sen in katakana and kawa in hiragana, whats the meaning? |
The character is from China. Most kanji have more than one pronounciation or reading (in some cases a lot more). Some of these, the "Onyomi", are from the original Chinese, while others are the readings from a Japanese word.
So in your example, kawa was the original Japanese word for river, and when kanji was introduced to Japan, the character got the Japanese pronounciation. sen is (or was at the time) a word for river in Chinese. "kunyomi" is the term for readings originating in old Japanese, and "onyomi" are readings that originated in China.
As a _very_ general rule, Chinese-derived words are written as combinations of more than one kanji, and are more "adult", male, abstract and formal - just like more recent imported French words are more abstract and formal in English than the older Germanic import (or the really old Norse) - while Japanese-derived words are normally written with just one kanji and hiragana, and are seen as more concrete, informal and more female. There's a lot of exceptions to this, of course.
For example, 危ない (abunai) is a word for danger or dangerous. On the other hand you have 危険 (kiken), which also means danger. So 危 has the kunyomi "abu.nai" (it means the reading is "abu" and typically followed by "nai" in hiragana) and the onyomi "ki". But abunai is a very direct, concrete word - it's what you'd scream to someone just about to touch a live power line, for instance; you'd never shout "kiken!". On the other hand, on warning signs or whenever you're talking about some abstract danger, you'd use kiken as a rule. The example isn't perfect - abunai is an adjective while kiken is a noun - but it illustrates it ok I think. |
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nukeu666
JLPT Starter
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Location: India
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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aah, domo sensei
i guess increasing my vocab is the only way to know which to use when |
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Landei
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 119
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
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One last thing to add: While there are no real "rules" regarding kunyomi, there are two things that could help you memorize onyomi:
1) When the reading of the kanji in China changed over time, they changed often the same way for words with similar sound, so you often have two or three similar readings following some pattern, e.g.
MOKU - BOKU
SEI - SHOU
SEKI - SHAKU
TAI - DAI
2) Often you have one part of the kanji indicating the sound. E.g. you see a temple (JI) in the kanji for time or even hemorrhoid (ouch!), you can be quite sure the reading is JI. Or look at middle (CHUU) and insect, which has also a "middle" part. That system is not perfect (because it was invented for the original Chinese pronunciation), but better than nothing... |
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synewave
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Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Susono, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: Re: what are onyomi/kunyomi? |
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While agreeing with the majority of JanneM's post, my understanding of the differences in meaning of ON and KUN yomi is slightly different.
| JanneM wrote: |
| For example, 危ない (abunai) is a word for danger or dangerous. On the other hand you have 危険 (kiken), which also means danger. So 危 has the kunyomi "abu.nai" (it means the reading is "abu" and typically followed by "nai" in hiragana) and the onyomi "ki". But abunai is a very direct, concrete word - it's what you'd scream to someone just about to touch a live power line, for instance; you'd never shout "kiken!". On the other hand, on warning signs or whenever you're talking about some abstract danger, you'd use kiken as a rule. The example isn't perfect - abunai is an adjective while kiken is a noun - but it illustrates it ok I think. |
Taking the 危ない／危険 example, I think that 危ない encompasses a wider range of meaning while 危険 is more specific. I agree, one would shout 「危ない」 to someone about to touch a live power cable. However can be used in loads of other situations too, e.g. almost dropping something you are carrying 「危ない」、 saying something a bit risque but getting away with it, just 「危ない」、etc.
Whereas although the danger of 危険 may well be abstract, it is specifically to do with warning/danger/physical risk. So seeing a warning sign with 危険 written on is telling you not to put yourself in physical harm's way.
So to recap, I am under the impression that KUNyomi readings have a much wider range of meaning while the ONyomi words have a richer meaning that means something more specific. |
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Landei
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 119
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I already noticed that some readings are only kun-readings, but now I know that there is a really simple rule, which on-readings are "allowed" at all. I don't understand why this is not stated in text books on the very first page explaining kanji (at least I found this only in a forum):
There are the following possibilities for on-readings:
one open syllabe (e.g. KA, KYOU, SEI)
~CHI (e.g. NICHI)
~N (e.g. HON)
~KI (e.g. SEKI)
~KU (e.g. SHAKU)
~TSU (e.g. BUTSU)
For example, if you have "moto" or "masu", it can be only kun. |
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Keith
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Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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It doesn't help you at all to know which readings are ON and which are KUN.
You can't really guess at the reading for a word. You can't decipher it.
If you are guessing, you won't know if you are right or not. You will have a feeling of uncertainty that will gnaw away at you until you look it up (or consult with your neighbor.)
Some words even have more than one reading. Such as:
重複
There are others, but I haven't made a list.
I should keep a list. |
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synewave
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Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Susono, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith wrote: |
It doesn't help you at all to know which readings are ON and which are KUN.
You can't really guess at the reading for a word. You can't decipher it. |
There are plenty of kanji one can know the reading for without having seen the character before.
Some examples, out of many, are 検 険 倹 剣 etc, these kanji all have the ON yomi reading ケン. Heisig calls the common parts which have a bearing on the ON yomi reading 'signal primatives'.
Personally I'm fairly comfortable with ON yomi readings as there is a logic to them. Whereas KUN yomis are much more random.
Knowing that compounds are usually read using ON yomi readings whereas single kanji with okurigana are invariably KUN yomi is more than useful as it takes away a lot of the mystery of kanji.
Slightly less important, but if you ever take a Kanji Kentei, certain levels explicitly test your knowledge of whether you know the difference between ON and KUN readings. |
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Landei
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 119
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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When you learn, there is always a time where you "guess" the word. You read it before, but it's still not in your "memory". And then it is *very* important to know what's on and what's kun.
I want to give a little example what's happing in my brain while encountering a read-but-not-yet-learned word:
Lets say I read 最中. "Composite, probably on-on. I remember, there was a word 最上 (さいじょう) "best" and 最近 (さいきん) "recently", both on-on. So the first kanji is probably さい. Second one means "middle", which has the on-reading ちゅう, not なか. Hmm, "さいちゅう" sounds right, let's look it up..." I look it up, and it really *is* さいちゅう, and my brain rewards me with some endorphines. I spent some time on this word, searched for connections to other words etc. and this helps to remember it - even when my guess was wrong.
Of course, I don't know how Keith learns, but I can't imagine that his brain works that way: "Oh, look, there is a word I can't remember. Makes absolutely no sense to guess, let's look it up..." |
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Keith
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Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! I have got a lot to learn!
So, what do you guys do when a character has more than 1 ON-yomi? |
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synewave
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Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Susono, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith wrote: |
| So, what do you guys do when a character has more than 1 ON-yomi? |
I hit them from different angles.
Heisig's 'Remembering the Kanji II' is great as a reference particularly for what he terms 'pure' and 'semi-pure' groups. These are defined by what he calls signal primatives e.g. kanji with 中 in them always have the ON yomi チュウ。Those with 義 in them indicates ON yomi ギ。This is stuff we can work out ourselves but I find it useful to have a book to refer to.
Kanji Kentei prep books are good for providing example compounds and sentences. As far as learning reading goes, I try to learn to read words I already know, but perhaps didn't know the kanji/word relationship. So rather than learning brand new words it makes things much easier.
Recently I started reading some manga. I have tried numerous times before but have finally found something I a) can read (without using a dictionary) and b) actually enjoy reading. 'Detective Conan' books suit me and the majority of the kanji has furigana.
The above is really what I do as far as studying kanji reading is concerned. To actually answer your question, I usually learn one reading for a kanji at a time. Let it settle. Then once I am comfortable with it, pick up other readings.
Too many readings at once doesn't seem to work for me. |
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Applecart
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Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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I pretty much never think about what readings a kanji has. I really only think about words. How words are pronunced, and what kanji- if any- make up the word.
For my low-budget brain it is wayyyy too much to ask to try to just match a kanji to a bunch of readings. Of course, even if I managed to remember that, how would I know when to use what reading? Yeah, I know there are rough rules and as synewave said some are easy, but overall it is just too painful. So, for me, the idea is words first and kanji second. |
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Tim
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Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Keith wrote:
So, what do you guys do when a character has more than 1 ON-yomi? |
I wouldn't really learn kanji by itself.. you normally learn kanji by learning Jukugo and learning how to read the jukugo rather than the kanji itself. That way, you end up learning the kanji as parts of words rather than individually and thus won't have problems trying to guess the readings. unless you haven't come across the jukugo before.
For level 1, you really need to study by memorising jukugo. If you memorise the kanji and all the readings perfectly and not the jukugo, you will find that in level 1, the questions test you the correct readings for the jukugo. So say you knew all of the possible readings of individual kanji, you would have trouble choosing which of the list of possible readings of the kanjis in the jukugo. Especially when in level 1, 3 of 4 of the readings you can choose from ARE alternative readings.
You are even tested on jukugo that have the same reading and similar meaning but have different kanji. That is especially so in the section when you have to associate jukugo written in hiragana so that they share the same underlined kana of the desired kanji. |
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